4. Ms Brenda Doherty

MS BRENDA DOHERTY (sworn).

Questions From Lead Counsel to the Inquiry

Lady Hallett: Ms Doherty, if at any stage you want a break – I know you’re helping us by telling your story several times, so you may not need one, but I do assure you that if you do need one, please just say.

The Witness: Thank you. It might be the stenographer that needs a break, but I will try – I will try.

Lady Hallett: You have been following proceedings, haven’t you?

The Witness: I will try.

Mr Keith: We’re going to start with your name, please. Could you give your full name to the Inquiry.

Ms Brenda Doherty: My name’s Brenda Doherty.

Lead Inquiry: It’s my sad duty to ask you questions about your mother.

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes.

Lead Inquiry: On the morning of 11 March of 2020, did she have a regular checkup scheduled by the district nurse to check on warfarin levels in her blood?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes, she did. Mummy would have had regular checkups due to medication and that she was on to keep an eye on her warfarin levels. Sorry, yes, okay. There we go.

Lead Inquiry: The afternoon of the same day, did she have an appointment for an x-ray on her back at a local hospital?

Ms Brenda Doherty: She did. That had been arranged following a bit of a cough that she had had.

Lead Inquiry: Did she attend that x-ray or did something happen when she was being examined or having her blood levels examined in the course of that initial appointment?

Ms Brenda Doherty: No, she attended that x-ray and then when she got home, I received a phone call from the GP to say that mum’s warfarin levels were through the roof and that I needed to get her immediately to a hospital.

I did say that mum had already been at an appointment that day for her x-ray, and the doctor’s words were, “Even if you need to fold her up, get her immediately to the hospital, this is dangerous.”

Lead Inquiry: Was she told to go to the same hospital where she’d had the x-ray or a different hospital?

Ms Brenda Doherty: It was different. The hospital that she had the x-ray really only does that, it wouldn’t take in-patients.

Lead Inquiry: When she went to the hospital, therefore, in response to that phone call saying that she had to get to hospital immediately, did you know what sort of treatment she would then receive or what sort of process would be applied or were you essentially in the hands of the hospital to work out what would need to be done?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Well, we were essentially in the hands of the hospital, because when mum went in, as far as we were concerned, it was for the warfarin levels. The consultant did actually advise us that the checks, test x-ray was clear, and even though they thought there was a bit of an infection, they couldn’t deem where that was, and we’ve never found out what that was.

So they decided to admit mum.

Lead Inquiry: When she was admitted, was there at that stage any general understanding on your part or in fact on the part of the hospital as to what changes in procedure would be required in light of what was then the developing pandemic?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Absolutely not. When we took mummy up into the hospital, there was very limited – just a plastic apron on staff, and my sister actually asked about Covid, and we were told not to worry, it would be a flash in the pan and gone by the summer.

Lead Inquiry: That was 11 March?

Ms Brenda Doherty: 11 March.

Lead Inquiry: For those first few days were you allowed to visit your mother in hospital?

Ms Brenda Doherty: We were, and then restrictions went that only one person was allowed to go in, and then on 17 March I went up to visit and I was told then that they had stopped all visiting due to the fact that unfortunately not everybody was following the one person guidance, and actually some people were trying to get four – three or four members in during the day, so therefore the trust felt that all visiting should stop.

Lead Inquiry: Were you able nonetheless to see your mother on that occasion, because of the state in which she was then in?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Well, that night I just got to leave a plastic bag in with clothing in it, and actually the – on the Thursday, the 19th of March, was the evening that I got up to leave clothing in and the nurse said that, “Your mum is a bit distressed tonight, do you want to come in and see if you can settle her”, so she says, “I’ll give you five minutes”. So I went in and found mum rocking on her chair. And I always say this, because it just says it as it was for me, that mum had one tear on her cheek, and I says to her, “Mummy dear, what’s wrong, don’t be panicking”, and she says, “I just want to go home.”

At that stage, as far as we were concerned, mummy would be coming home, so I told her not to worry, that on a Monday evening – we all took turns, since my dad died, to stay with mum. Monday evening was my night and we had our knitting club, we watched movies and we watched things like girl flicks, you know, things that my husband wouldn’t watch with me. So I said, “You and I’ll be sitting on Monday night watching (inaudible)”. I took her face in my hands, I gave her a kiss and told her I loved her and not to worry, that I would see her hopefully the next day, which was the Friday, that we hoped to bring her home. I waved bye bye and told her I loved her, and that was the last I seen my mum.

Lead Inquiry: The next day were you told that it was likely that she would be discharged, in fact?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes, I got a phone call to say that they were trying to arrange a care package and, providing they got that put in place, that mum would be coming home. Later on in the day, I got a phone call to say that mum – because of mum’s swallow that they weren’t going to let her home, because they needed her tablets to be crushed and unfortunately the care workers in the morning weren’t able to do that. Now, mum has had an issue with her swallow since 2016 and we were actually waiting on a scan from 2018 to see what the issue was, but unfortunately that never happened.

Lead Inquiry: So she came within a hair breadth of being discharged and would have been that discharged that day, the Friday, were it not for the fact that there was a last minute complication with the care package which had to be in place?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes.

Lead Inquiry: That complication meant that she stayed in the hospital one further night?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes.

Lead Inquiry: What happened on the Saturday?

Ms Brenda Doherty: On the Saturday, I had rang just to ask about how mum was doing, and she says, “Oh, well, we have moved her to another ward”, and I said, “Is she not getting home?” And they said, “Somebody will ring you later.”

In my head I thought maybe mummy was moved to a discharge ward, so I was waiting on the call, and then that night I got a phone call and the first words I heard were, “Hi Brenda, I’m sorry, your mum has tested positive.”

And I said, “Positive for what?”

And they said Covid-19. I’ll not repeat my response, but you can imagine that there was a swear word there, because I didn’t expect to hear that, because, as far as I was concerned, mum was medically fit to be discharged and only the care package was keeping her in.

Lead Inquiry: And there has been no suggestion that she was, for example, on any sort of Covid ward?

Ms Brenda Doherty: No.

Lead Inquiry: Did they tell you that the whole of her ward had been tested?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes.

Lead Inquiry: And, therefore, that is how she came to have a test, which proved to be positive?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes, one person on the ward displayed symptoms, so they tested the whole ward and mum tested positive.

Lead Inquiry: On the Sunday, you attended the hospital to take in to your mother some clothing, a nightdress I think, and some personal items. Were you able to see her?

Ms Brenda Doherty: No, I took up – it was Mothering Sunday so I took up one of her presents that I’d bought her, which was a nightdress that says, “Mum, you are my world”.

At one point the nurse was actually leading me down the corridor, and at that point another member of staff came and said, “She can’t be here, you need to take her out.”

And the nurse said, “She wants to know about her mum.”

So they took me out and later another nurse came and said, “Your mum is doing well, and if she keeps this up we actually might get her home during the week.”

So I went home thinking “Happy days”.

Lead Inquiry: But on the Monday night, or in the evening, did you receive a call telling you that her condition had gone significantly downwards?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Prior to that, I had made a phone call, on the Monday, to check to see how mum was doing, and I was told unfortunately they couldn’t give me any information on the phone, and I says, “Well, I can’t get up so you have to give me information on the phone or else how am I going to know how mum’s doing”, and they said somebody will be in touch later.

So it was just after the Prime Minister had made his lockdown speech that I got a phone call, and again it was, “Hi Brenda, I’m contacting you to find out do you agree to no unnecessary intervention in your mum’s care?”

Lead Inquiry: Did you, of course, say, “What do you mean?”

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes. I said, “What are you asking me?”

And the doctor at that point started talking about mum’s liver failure, kidney failure, her heart rate, her blood pressure, and they deemed that any intervention would be unkindly to mum.

So I said, “Are you telling me that this is a battle that mum’s not going to win?”

And the doctor said, “Yes.”

And I said, “So do I ring my siblings and tell them?”

And he said, “Yes.”

At that point then I asked could I come and see mum, could anybody be with her, and I was told no, unfortunately not, that they would ring me when mum had passed.

Lead Inquiry: And she did?

Ms Brenda Doherty: And she did, 12 hours later. The longest 12 hours of our lives.

Lead Inquiry: So you never got to see her again?

Ms Brenda Doherty: No.

Lead Inquiry: And she never came home?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Never.

Lead Inquiry: Was the funeral for her subject to the restrictions of which we are all now only too familiar?

Ms Brenda Doherty: It was, and –

Lead Inquiry: On the number of people who could attend?

Ms Brenda Doherty: I suppose – you know, there were so many things that, as a family, we accepted at the start because we believed that’s what was to happen. You know, so we didn’t get mum’s clothing back from the hospital. It was incinerated. Thanks to the kindness of a nurse we got a cross back. And, you know, I’ve heard earlier from other witnesses about how their loved ones were treated, you know. I like to pretend mum was in the nightdress that I bought her, but the reality is I know she was double bagged, like toxic waste.

So we met mum at the cemetery gates – at first we were advised that only two people can attend. My brothers had agreed that it would be my sister and I. And then, thankfully, the night before they told us that a total of ten could attend but only my sister and I could be at the graveside and the other eight would have to stand back, red and white tape.

We met mum at the cemetery gates. We walked in behind her, there was no carrying of the coffin. We had – it wasn’t a funeral, it was a 10 to 15-minute committal. We were timed. I went to walk to touch mum’s coffin and I was told I wasn’t allowed at the graveside until mummy was in the hole in the ground.

You know, Anna-Louise talked about singing. I played Amazing Grace on my phone. And then I could see the cemetery attender putting the watch up and telling me that the time was up. So then we as a family all went our separate ways, my two brothers and my sister all went home to their own house, as did my sons, and my nephew, and there was no coming together for us until the August, really, of 2020.

Lead Inquiry: Were you able to visit your mother there in the weeks thereafter?

Ms Brenda Doherty: No. The cemetery gates were closed. And I had a brother who died when he was 16, of cancer, and when my daddy died we would have took some rose of one of the wreaths and put it in a Bible, and I didn’t get that for mum, because by the time we got to the cemetery the flowers were decayed and unfortunately just fit for the bin.

Lead Inquiry: Thereafter, did you become involved in, with other like-minded people, raising your general concerns and some of the events which had befallen you with state bodies, state organisations, raising the profile of all these matters –

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes.

Lead Inquiry: – in order to try to bring about significant change?

Ms Brenda Doherty: We did.

Lead Inquiry: Was that part of the Covid Bereaved Families group or was this within the Northern Irish branch of which you’ve spoken?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Initially I became a member of Covid Bereaved Families for Justice UK in the summer of 2020. I had been very vocal about mum’s death. I was quite determined that mum would not be a statistic. My sister had already said, you know, mum’s going to be a statistic and I said, “No, everyone will know Ruth Burke, and everybody will know who she was, the life she had and not just how she died.”

And because of being vocal, other family members started reaching out to me and sharing with me their experiences. So we knew that we had to start doing something.

I actually became involved in another project called Memory Stones of Love, and – with another family member who lost both his parents within 12 hours.

Because sometimes in Northern Ireland we feel like we’re the poor relation, and I was quite determined that at this time we wouldn’t be the poor relation. Our loved ones deserved the same as everybody else.

Other members within the group were contacting the relevant bodies to try and get access to loved ones in the residential care – in care homes, trying to get access into loved ones in hospitals. And I suppose one of the most frustrating things for me was the inconsistency in the trusts across Northern Ireland, because, you know, since mum’s passing I’ve found that other ones got to be with their loved ones and that had led me to question why, and people will say, “Well, your mummy died so early on”, but, you know, people who died within the week of mum got to be with their loved ones. You know there is ways it can happen.

Lead Inquiry: So did it become apparent to you that there may be failings across the board? As opposed to just failings and a failure to protect your own mother, there was a wider more general issue?

Ms Brenda Doherty: 100%. You know, one of the things that I was quite struck by was the things that were going to come out from the families. We had – you know, once the Memory Stones came together, then myself and my co-lead, Martina, we connected, and we started with, you know, looking at: how can we ensure that our loved ones and the people of Northern Ireland can be represented as a group? And that’s actually how we branched off. So we’re still very much part of the Covid Bereaved Families for Justice UK, we are another branch of them, which is great because we benefit from great input from our legal team as well as the English team.

Lead Inquiry: Does the branch, the Northern Ireland branch, represent just bereaved or does it represent others and provide support to them, for example key workers or public sector workers or those who have suffered in other ways in the course of the pandemic?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Generally in the Covid Bereaved Northern Ireland group it is bereaved, but what I would say is anybody who reaches out to us, like recently I had a gentleman who suffered from long Covid, so I’ve linked him into another group, we would always try and support.

Our focus very much is finding out what changes need to be made to ensure this doesn’t happen again.

Lead Inquiry: In addition to trying to ensure accountability, to use the word from your statement, that is to say trying to find out what went wrong, what happened and to try to find answers and therefore to make improvements, do you also continue to provide support for bereaved as well as those other people who have reached out to you?

Ms Brenda Doherty: We do. We provide support and actually, through the other project, Memory Stones of Love, we are now linking in with Cruse Bereavement, looking at how we can work in partnership to provide support, and it’s very, very important – you know, you have watched the impact statements, which are very powerful, and I am so grateful to have had an opportunity to be part of it, my Lady. It meant a lot to have a voice. And that was very important, because there is so many themes here, within our group, that we need change within Northern Ireland.

And I have been practising a word all week, and I hope that I get it out: legislative – yes – change. We need legislative change in Northern Ireland.

There is so much that happens. I have heard today you talk about DNRs. That is so representative within our group. We done a lot of work to get the themes.

My Lady, when you were in Belfast you would have been struck by how many families had DNRs on them without any consultation. Families will question the use of medication, the visitation rights that were not allowed, even though there’s the Care Partners’ guidance, that was just being totally and utterly ignored.

Lead Inquiry: Can I just pause you there, Ms Doherty.

The DNRs, medication, visiting rights, also in the hospital sphere, communication with –

Ms Brenda Doherty: Totally.

Lead Inquiry: – patients and their loved ones and their families.

End of life care, is that another important area?

Ms Brenda Doherty: And the lack of PPE.

Lead Inquiry: The lack of PPE.

Ms Brenda Doherty: And especially in community. And I think – you know, one of the other things is we can put things in place, but there is a level of responsibility on people to follow them, and earlier we’ve heard, you know, from Matt about some of the hateful messages he got sent, and unfortunately I had swastikas, stuff sent to me via messages, saying that I was colluding.

And, you know, not everybody wanted to wear PPE. Some people were afraid of their glasses steaming up. Not everybody who was going into homes were sanitising properly. You know, we have a member who lost both her parents and she believed it was because of poor – you know, not following the guidelines, not sanitising, not wearing PPE.

You know, that – unfortunately, whilst we want change, I think one of the other big things is the fact of how Covid has been responded to, left unfortunately a lot of questions over how real – I even had a comment the other day when I said I was coming to the Inquiry, some idiot, I shall say, said that, “Well, sure I saw Michael Jackson. Covid’s as real as Michael Jackson is walking around.”

So it’s still out there and this is still what we are dealing with when we are trying to bring about change to protect society.

Lead Inquiry: What about care homes and nursing homes? Have many of your members expressed concerns about the treatment, the access to medical treatment in care and nursing homes, similarly the issue of communication with families –

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes.

Lead Inquiry: – and also end of life care, so the same broad and very significant issues arise also in the context of care and nursing homes?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes, we – at the start of the pandemic we have one member, her father and her uncle, and actually her cousin is also a member, they received a phone call to say that all residents would not be receiving end of life resuscitation if required. There was being a DNR put on all the residents should they contract Covid. Which I just find extremely upsetting. And I suppose this is the one thing – I know from the very large group that we have that Covid didn’t just take – and I don’t mean that “just” the way it comes out – but didn’t just take the lives of elderly. One of our youngest was 28 weeks in gestation, so hadn’t yet been born.

You talked about communication and the lack of it. One of the other issues that I have was the failure to communicate how Covid evolved, and it wasn’t just about the guidance at the start, of the temperature and the cough and the loss of taste and smell. We have a 23-year old man who was experiencing vomiting and diarrhoea. He didn’t need a test because he wasn’t experiencing symptoms. That 23-year old man called on his mummy, and my Lady, you met this lady.

Lady Hallett: I remember very well.

Ms Brenda Doherty: And unfortunately that young man lost his life. So, you know, communication is a big thing.

You know, there were so many people – not only were there not being communication, but things were being communicated wrongly. We have another family member who they were told to – that their loved one was doing well. Five minutes later somebody different rang and said, “You need to come up”, and when they arrived there unfortunately they were two minutes late, their loved one had passed away.

So, I mean, I know in my work how important communication is. I think communication throughout what I’m hearing over these last lot of weeks, the breakdown in communication has been powerful in a lot of issues and unfortunately, you know, in the application to apply some of the guidelines I think the communication hasn’t been there.

Mr Keith: And I think you would say that, drawing those various threads together, the failings or the lack of protection in relation to treatment in hospitals, care homes, infection control, communication, as well as the terrible restrictions after death in relation to funerals and the like, across the board, institutionally, there was a broad swathe of, you would say, matters that went wrong?

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yeah. I’ll be diplomatic – which isn’t like me, so it really takes a lot –

Lead Inquiry: Well, you are giving evidence under oath.

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes, that’s why I’m being diplomatic and that’s why I kept the bible beside me.

The apparent lack of ability to apply, you know, the guidance and the things are out here is just shocking, and I suppose one of the things that I’m really struck by – and, you know, you mentioned care homes and one of the things I think that’s very important, because it has been highlighted here today and it happened in Northern Ireland too, was the lack of testing. And I’m thinking of one family member in particular who herself has health issues, and she would talk about her brother, who she cared for until he couldn’t go in – until she couldn’t care for him anymore and he had to go into a care home, and she will talk about how the care home was flooded with people who unfortunately, due to lack of testing, were positive.

Lead Inquiry: From hospitals?

Ms Brenda Doherty: From hospitals, you know. And again, for me, I’m not the most logical person, I have been told recently, but there’s things that I think common sense should be applied, and that to me is common sense, and my Lady, you know, I’m not going to digress, but I just – as a Northern Ireland person you know that I’ve been very vocal in saying that I don’t want to be a footnote, and one of the things that I feel I have to say here today, if you don’t mind, Mr Keith –

Lead Inquiry: Well, it’s not for me, it’s for my Lady.

Ms Brenda Doherty: Yes, but I’m just saying because I’m interrupting you – is that in Northern Ireland I didn’t feel the need to know about Civil Contingencies Act 2004, I didn’t need to know about the civil contingency hub or all the different sub-groups. I have never in my life heard so many sub-groups. There is far too many links in the chain, which means no communication. No communication whatsoever. And I am just astounded.

You know, again, that’s where the legislative change needs to come in.

When I have been reading Civil Contingencies Act – I’m not saying, being menopausal, I retain it, but I have been reading it, and we are so far apart.

And I’m going to get a bit emotional here, and emotion’s good, because I am here to remind everybody of the human cost that we paid as bereaved people. My mummy was not cannon fodder. My mummy was a wonderful wee woman who had the spirit of Goliath, and I know she’s standing here with me today, because she would want me to be here, because she knows that she lived a life, as did all our loved ones, and it’s very important that we remember the human cost, because there are too many people out there now that think Covid has gone away. People are still losing their life to Covid. And I have now trained myself to ignore those individuals as best I can and focus now on the living, because it’s us here that are bereaved that have to live the legacy.

I’ve got my tree of life earrings on. We may have lost a branch but that branch left a legacy which I will continue to live on.

Mr Keith: Ms Doherty, thank you very much.

Lady Hallett: There’s nothing I can say, Ms Doherty.

The Witness: Thank you.

Lady Hallett: Extremely moving, you have been moving throughout, so thank you very much indeed for all your you’ve done and I promise to answer as many questions as I can.

The Witness: Thank you.

And please, if there’s an opportunity to hear for more, here. Thank you very much.

Lady Hallett: Thank you.

So Ms Doherty started our hearings with the impact film, and you’re our last witness.

The Witness: Thank you.

Lady Hallett: Very appropriate, if I may say so.

(The witness withdrew)

Lady Hallett: I’m told in fact that, apart the fact that

I would take a break anyway, I’m asked not to hear closing submissions until 1.30.

Mr Keith: My Lady, yes. We have been unable to bring them forward, so if we could have – if you could rise now and then sit again at 1.30, we can start the closing submissions at that point.

Lady Hallett: I shall. 1.30, please.

(12.21 pm)

(The short adjournment)

(1.30 pm)

Lady Hallett: Mr Weatherby.