4. Submissions on Behalf of Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru by Mr Williams

Mr Williams: My Lady, it’s avoiding me having to climb over people, so I have to sit in a corner over there.

My Lady, I represent the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru. Together with the legal team that I lead, it is a Welsh-based and Welsh-focused group, dedicated solely to campaigning for and giving a voice to those bereaved by Covid-19 in Wales.

We have listened carefully to the address by Mr Keith, and we’re grateful for the more detailed information he was able to provide us. That means that the submissions I make will be significantly shorter, which might please some people here, but I’ll deal with those matters which seem to be of particular importance.

First of all, may I thank you on behalf of CBFFJ Cymru for designating it as a core participant in Module 2 hearings of this public inquiry, and for the Chair’s recognition that it is best placed to assist this public inquiry to achieve its aims by representing the collective interests of a broad spectrum of those bereaved by Covid-19 in Wales.

It is vitally important that the people of Wales can have full confidence that this public inquiry will fully scrutinise decision-making in Wales in respect of Covid-19 and that the experiences and voices of the Welsh people will be properly heard and represented.

We welcome the Chair’s indication that this public inquiry will come and hear evidence in Wales on Module 2B, and it may be on other parts of the various modules as well.

This all gives confidence to those I represent that this Inquiry takes the interests of Wales seriously, and intends to do a thorough examination of all those matters which touch upon the interests of Wales and its concerns.

It’s particularly important, in the case of Wales, since there is no separate Inquiry being undertaken in Wales. Frankly we don’t know why that is so. It may be that at some stage in these proceedings the Welsh Government, or Mr Drakeford, can explain it to you. We will have to wait and see who is called to give evidence.

CBFFJ Cymru welcomes the Chair’s commitment to looking at the actions of the devolved administrations. However, as the Chair will be aware, there are still concerns in Wales that the preliminary scope of Module 2 does not set out in specific detail the Welsh-specific issues that ought to be investigated by this public inquiry.

In particular, as may not be appreciated still, Wales is a separate country, with a devolved government. Although Wales receives funding from the UK Government, responsibility for health and social care is devolved to the Welsh Government. Wales has its own healthcare system. This means that the key decisions made in Wales in relation to the Covid-19 pandemic were largely separate to and quite often different from those taken in the UK Government.

Clearly, Wales has strong links with the UK Government and the other devolved governments, and it will obviously be necessary in Module 2 to unravel the links between these governments, both the formal and informal links, and to see the extent to which they influence the Welsh Government, whether for good or bad.

In relation to Module 2, CBFFJ Cymru would wish to highlight some of the areas of concern that this public inquiry must scrutinise in respect of Wales, but it may be that now is not the time or the place to go into those in great detail, having heard other matters raised by Mr Keith.

There are, however, just a few little matters I would like to comment upon which need to be emphasised. We need to know the extent to which there was a sharing of knowledge between Wales and the UK Government, in particular on scientific and medical matters. We need to know the actions taken or not taken by the Welsh Government, whether they were influenced by and why they differed from decisions taken by the UK Government.

We need to know whether the actions taken or not taken by the Welsh Government were justifiable in the light of the state of knowledge, whether expert, medical or otherwise. We need to know to what extent were the decisions of the Welsh Government supported or not supported by expert opinion.

Then, this is rather an open-ended consideration, this is at paragraph 8(e), we need to know the extent to which the actions of the Welsh Government were influenced by political considerations. Whether they were influenced or not remains to be seen. We have had no information outside of this Inquiry concerning that matter, although, by common consensus, in Wales at least, it was greatly influenced by political matters.

There are further matters, one of which was raised by Mr Weatherby, and that’s the question of superspreader events. This is part of a wider topic, which is that the scope raises different issues in respect of Module 2, England, Module 2A, Module 2B and Module 2C. So the superspreader issue is raised in respect of Scotland, Module 2A. There were similar events in Wales. In particular, one close to my heart, the rugby international between Wales and Scotland was cancelled the day before it was due to take place in 2020, but it was cancelled after very large numbers of Welsh and Scottish supporters had descended on Cardiff, tens of thousands, and consideration will need to be made to perhaps drawing a more consistent approach to the four countries so that those issues are covered.

My Lady, the matters I was going to make further submissions on have been met by Mr Keith’s submissions and touched upon by Mr Weatherby. I don’t intend to repeat them any more.

Lady Hallett: Very grateful, Mr Williams, thank you very much. As you know, but I need to emphasise, whether or not a devolved nation institutes an inquiry of its own is not a matter for me and I’m not entering into that debate; I just will cope with or co-operate with whatever happens.

As far as some of the matters you’ve raised, I suspect they are already intended to be covered but it may be that, as Mr Weatherby was saying, we can make matters more explicit to allay any concerns. But anyway, thank you very much for your very helpful submissions.

Right, Scotland and Ms Mitchell, I think.