Transcript of Module 1 Public Hearing on 13 July 2023

(10.00 am)

Lady Hallett: Ms Blackwell.

Ms Blackwell: Good morning, my Lady. May I please call Marcus Bell.

1. Mr Marcus Bell

MR MARCUS BELL (affirmed).

Questions From Counsel to the Inquiry

Ms Blackwell: Mr Bell, may I begin by thanking you for the assistance you’ve so far given to the Inquiry. I know that you have made witness statements both in relation to this module and also Module 2.

We can see on screen the witness statement that’s most referable to this module. Can you confirm, please, that it’s true to the best of your knowledge and belief?

Mr Marcus Bell: I can.

Counsel Inquiry: Thank you. We can see that on page 6 it has been signed by you on 20 April of this year.

Thank you, we can take that down.

Mr Bell, you joined the Cabinet Office in 2016, you became director of the Race Disparity Unit and also the Disability Unit, and from September of 2020 you have been director of the government Equality Hub, which is based in the Cabinet Office and is focused on disability policy, ethnic disparities, gender equality, LGBT rights and the overall framework of equality legislation for the United Kingdom. Is that right?

Mr Marcus Bell: That’s correct.

Counsel Inquiry: Thank you.

The Equality Hub was created in September of 2020, so in fact it postdates the end of the Module 1 time period, but I will during the course of my questioning this morning ask you about your experience within the hub.

I want to begin, however, by seeking your assistance in describing the three units that made up the hub that were joined together in September of 2020, starting off with the Race Disparity Unit.

So from your experience in it, can you describe to the Inquiry what that unit did, what was its remit?

Mr Marcus Bell: Right, so the Race Disparity Unit focuses on ethnicity disparities, so that’s differences of treatment or outcome affecting people from different ethnic minority backgrounds, and as you said it was set up in 2016.

Counsel Inquiry: Mr Bell, can I just ask you slow down a little bit, please. You speak rather quickly.

Mr Marcus Bell: So sorry.

As you said, it was set up in 2016, following an initiative by the then Prime Minister, and it was actually originally intended to be a time-limited project, it was only supposed to last for a year, but the decision was taken to keep it on.

So it had its origins as effectively a statistical unit focused on ethnicity data, and the Race Disparity Unit collects and publishes a very large amount of ethnicity data on its website, ethnicity facts and figures, which we still maintain. But after an initial phase focused on data, the Race Disparity Unit grew a policy function on top, because if you publish data about ethnic disparities, the public expects the government to tackle them, and so the Race Disparity Unit became both a policy and a statistical unit focused on collecting and publishing high quality data about ethnicity but also trying to influence public policy on that supporting ministers. So that was and is its function.

Counsel Inquiry: Thank you.

What about the Disability Unit?

Mr Marcus Bell: So the Disability Unit was created in late 2019, so November 2019, and the idea there was to bring more of a strategic focus to disability policy at the heart of government, so that’s been the Disability Unit’s focus: to try and improve the quality of cross-cutting policy on disability from the Cabinet Office.

Counsel Inquiry: Finally, the Government Equalities Office, or the GEO.

Mr Marcus Bell: Right, so GEO is more long-standing than either of those other two units, so it’s been around since 2007, and its focus, again as you said in your opening remarks, is on gender equality, LGBT rights and the framework of law and guidance around equality.

Counsel Inquiry: What is the Social Mobility Commission and where does that currently sit?

Mr Marcus Bell: So the Social Mobility Commission is an independent arm’s length body, so it’s an independent commission though it’s appointed by ministers. Its focus is on improving social mobility and its secretariat, so the staff who support it, are part of the Equality Hub. So that’s the join with the other things we’ve been describing.

Counsel Inquiry: Right. What was the rationale in combining the three units which you’ve described?

Mr Marcus Bell: I think the rationale was two-fold. So one was that there are connections between the different issues that the different units focus on, so people can experience discrimination based on race and gender at the same time, and so it was thought to be a good idea to bring the units together for that reason.

I think there was also an efficiency argument, because the different units had teams focused – separate teams focused on, for example, communications and analysis and other issues, and it was thought to be more efficient to bring them together within a single organisation.

Counsel Inquiry: As we’ve said, the knitting together of the three units took place in September of 2020, so, as this module is well aware, that was during the outbreak of Covid-19. Is that a decision and the rationale that you’ve just set out, was that something which had been thought of before the onset of Covid-19, or was it something that happened as a result of Covid-19 perhaps?

Mr Marcus Bell: I don’t think it primarily happened as a result of Covid-19. So I think that there was – before September 2020 there was informal collaboration between the different units, both on Covid and on other issues. I think it was – it was felt by the Secretary of State at the time, Liz Truss, that the work would be done better if it was managed together, so I think that was the main reason, but I don’t think it was particularly driven by Covid, even though obviously that was going on at the time.

Counsel Inquiry: So that was just a coincidence in terms of the timing that it came together?

Mr Marcus Bell: I think so. And it’s worth saying that the – of the different units that you’ve been describing, the Race Disparity Unit and the Disability Unit were very heavily engaged in Covid work in 2020. I think the Government Equalities Office was engaged but less so.

Counsel Inquiry: Right, thank you.

Is it right that the Equality Hub has three key areas of responsibility? The first is policies that are solely the responsibility of the Equality Hub, for example legislating to ban conversion practices. Second, policies and pilot programmes that are developed within the Equality Hub and then handed over to other government departments to lead, such as the LGBT bullying plan, which is now the responsibility of the Department for Education. And, third, advising and supporting other government departments to deliver policies drawing upon the experience that’s held within the Equality Hub.

Mr Marcus Bell: I think that’s correct, and I think the easiest way of explaining this is that every single public policy issue has an equality dimension to it.

Counsel Inquiry: I’m sorry, I’m going to have to ask you to slow down. The stenographer has to follow what you’re saying and you are very quickly spoken.

Mr Marcus Bell: I’m sorry. I will try and slow it down.

Counsel Inquiry: Thank you.

Mr Marcus Bell: So I think the best way of explaining that is that every single public policy issue has an equality dimension to it –

Counsel Inquiry: Right.

Mr Marcus Bell: – whether that’s in education or health or the armed forces or benefits, and there’s no way that all of that can be managed properly by a small unit in the centre of government, so inevitably we have to prioritise. So for the most part we look to individual government departments to manage their own equality issues. We provide guidance from time to time to departments from the centre, and we also focus at any one time on a limited number of issues that are a particular priority for ministers.

Counsel Inquiry: Going back in time to the ten years leading up to the onset of Covid-19, and bearing in mind the dates at which you have explained to the Inquiry that the separate three units were set up, are you able to help us in terms of the level of consideration, consultation and involvement that the Race Disparity Unit, the Disability Unit and the Government Equalities Office had in pandemic planning with other government departments?

Mr Marcus Bell: Yeah, so I know from my own experience in the Race Disparity Unit and the Disability Unit, which I was leading at the time, that we had no involvement in pre-pandemic preparedness within government. I understand from GEO colleagues – so I wasn’t the director of GEO at the time, but I understand from GEO colleagues that they did not have any involvement either.

Counsel Inquiry: With your role as director of the Race Disparity Unit and the Disability Unit, was pandemic preparedness on your radar at all?

Mr Marcus Bell: I would say it wasn’t. Perhaps if I just say a brief word about what was on our radar and why.

So we agreed a set of priorities in the Race Disparity Unit with ministers, and that came from two sources. So one was data. So, as I said, we collect a very large volume of data about ethnic disparities, so one source was data showing where disparities were greatest, the other was a kind of judgement call from ministers about what were the issues that they particularly wanted us to focus on.

So among the issues that we were –

Lady Hallett: Please slow down.

Mr Marcus Bell: I’m so sorry.

Lady Hallett: It’s not just our brave stenographers, I also try to make a note. So it was a judgement call by ministers – sorry, I interrupted.

Mr Marcus Bell: A combination of data and a judgement call by ministers. So among the issues that we were focused on, they included school exclusions, adoption, mental health and university entrance, because those are all issues where there was a significant ethnic disparity from the data, but also some willingness from ministers to address them.

Ms Blackwell: Thank you.

I’d like to display, please, the strategy from 2011, the United Kingdom pandemic preparedness strategy, and in particular the analysis of impact on equality which accompanied the strategy. Thank you very much.

If we could have a look at page 1, please. Thank you.

Just to remind ourselves of this document, which has been mentioned to my Lord before today.

“The Equality Act 2010 mandates a duty within the public sector to:

“- eliminate discrimination, harassment, victimisation and any other conduct that is prohibited by or under the Act;

“- advance equality of opportunity between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and persons who do not share it; and

“- foster good relations between persons who share a relevant protected characteristic and those who do not share it.”

Then the next paragraph sets out a definition of what protected characteristics are, and says:

“The Department of Health’s … Analysis of Impact on Equality … process is a key element of demonstrating how it is meeting the duty. It also considers other groups that may experience disadvantage and barriers to accessing services as well as poorer experience and outcomes.”

So, just pausing there, please, did you have any impact or involvement in the preparation of the Department of Health’s analysis of impact on equality at any point?

Mr Marcus Bell: Well, in relation to mental health issues, as I said, we were working on that in 2019, yes. In relation to the issues covered by this document, no, not in 2019, but also, of course, this document was prepared in 2011, when neither the Race Disparity Unit nor the Disability Unit existed.

Counsel Inquiry: No, of course, and the Inquiry has heard that there were plans afoot to update it but matters did not come to fruition prior to Covid-19 hitting the United Kingdom.

But in preparation for its update, did you, in either the Race Disparity Unit or the Disability Unit, have any contact from those who were charged with updating this document to make contact with you and to seek your views as to any assistance you could give in provision of information for the updated document?

Mr Marcus Bell: I believe we didn’t, no.

Counsel Inquiry: Right.

Since Covid-19 and the improvements – given the impact that it’s had on the country, the improvements to this and other documents and – both in terms of preparedness and the resilience of the country, has there been contact with the Equality Hub, as it now is, to seek its consultation in terms of the preparation of documents and plans going forwards?

Mr Marcus Bell: Well, we were very heavily engaged on Covid work specifically from, I think, the sort of early months of 2020 onwards. So, I mean, I think particularly from May 2020 onwards. And my minister, Kemi Badenoch, made a statement to Parliament in June 2020 about the work that we were then going to do, and I think we had a very extensive involvement with the Department of Health and its various agencies over the two years which followed.

Counsel Inquiry: Is the Equality Hub expecting to provide, for instance, guidance to the Cabinet Office groups who are now charged with the responsibility of taking forwards pandemic preparedness and resilience matters?

Mr Marcus Bell: We’re very happy to, and we did publish recommendations about some key lessons learned from the pandemic from an equality perspective in the report that we published in December 2021.

Counsel Inquiry: Well, I’m going to come to those in a moment, Mr Bell. Before I do, you will be aware that Professors Marmot and Bambra have provided both a written report and evidence to the Inquiry in terms of health inequalities, and part of the evidence that they’ve given to my Lady was that, in their opinion, in terms of this document and the analysis of impact on equality report, the analysis undertaken was fairly limited in terms of identifying the multiple issues faced by different social groups, and that there is little in this document provided on what action should be taken to mitigate any differential impacts. Do you agree with that assessment?

Mr Marcus Bell: I think those are fair comments, yes, and perhaps it might be helpful if I said a little bit about what I would expect to see in equality impact assessments.

Counsel Inquiry: That was going to be my next question, so yes, please.

Mr Marcus Bell: Right, okay.

So clearly it’s primarily the responsibility of lead departments, as I said, to prepare equality impact assessments, so we see quite a lot of them, and sometimes they’re done well and sometimes they’re done less well. But I think the three things that I would particularly expect to see in a good equality impact assessment are clarity about the outcomes that the department is seeking to achieve or prevent, so I think that’s the first thing. I think the second thing is an analysis of the maintain protected characteristics that might be impacted. And third is good data about how far different protected characteristics are impacted by whatever the department is seeking to achieve.

So I think those are three things that I would expect to see in a good equality impact assessment.

Counsel Inquiry: Has the Equality Hub provided that opinion and guidance to any of the lead government departments?

Mr Marcus Bell: So the Equality and Human Rights Commission, who I think you’re seeing later on, they publish guidance about equality impact assessments. We write to departments from time to time about what an effective approach is to equality impact assessments, and I believe the most recent time was in 2021 when Kemi Badenoch wrote to ministers about equality impact assessments.

I think it’s worth saying that we also have a more informal arrangement called the PSED Network –

Counsel Inquiry: The what, sorry?

Mr Marcus Bell: PSED Network, the Public Sector Equality Duty Network, which is a network of officials dealing with equality issues around government, who we – from time to time we meet them and discuss what an effective approach is and what works and what works less as well.

Counsel Inquiry: In your answer to that question, you’ve set out how the Equality Hub can reach out to other government departments and the reasons why the Equality Hub would do that, but it’s a two-way street, isn’t it? The Equality Hub is a visible unit which lead government departments in relation to any aspect of risk planning would know about, and know how to get hold of you.

Do you also agree, Mr Bell, that there is a level of responsibility on those within other government departments to reach out to the Equality Hub and to seek guidance and assistance in areas where that is appreciated to be a need?

Mr Marcus Bell: Yes, I would agree with that, and it’s worth saying that there is quite a lot of expertise now in departments in conducting equality impact assessments, and quite a lot of experience in doing them, so we wouldn’t automatically expect that people would consult us when conducting this work, but obviously, you know, they do from time to time and we’re happy to help where we can.

Counsel Inquiry: Thank you.

Let’s then look at the summary of Equality Hub Covid-19 lessons learned session, and this report is at INQ000101263. Thank you.

We can see from the document that this is the report of the session that took place on 18 November – of which year?

Mr Marcus Bell: I think 2021.

Counsel Inquiry: Thank you. It contains a summary of the points raised in the session. I’m going to read through them and ask you some questions about them, Mr Bell.

“Redeploying staff externally.

“- The first staff to be redeployed were the analysts working on the COVID-19 dashboard, which became the single source of truth and informed the early government daily briefings. This happened quickly and easily and the dashboard made a real difference.

“- [Equality Hub] staff made a good impression on other departments. Almost all of the gender team that were redeployed moved on to new roles.”

Just pausing there, was there a significant movement of staff during the course of the Covid-19 outbreak?

Mr Marcus Bell: There was, yes. So initially particularly from the Government Equalities Office and the Race Disparity Unit, because at the beginning of the pandemic there were – lots of new roles were needed almost immediately around government, and so a large number of staff were redeployed, particularly from those two units.

So Disability Unit was to some extent protected during that period, but a lot of staff were redeployed, including myself, for a limited period, yes, and that was because of a view by senior people in government that there were some new priorities, it was a national emergency and people needed to move quickly.

Counsel Inquiry: Yes.

Just moving down to the penultimate bullet point in this paragraph:

“- Issues around access to IT … meant that some people experienced delays in getting up to speed in other departments.”

And:

“- It was felt that Cabinet Office over-egged the redeployment process and redeployed too many people overall. Some people were told they were going on emergency redeployment but then had little or nothing to do after they had moved.”

Whilst appreciating that we’re now straying, really, into Module 2 issues, I want to ask you where this level of redeployment left the Equality Hub: was the work of the hub effectively put on hold from the moment that Covid hit and the redeployment process began to take effect?

Mr Marcus Bell: I think the impact was actually very limited, despite what’s said here, because Race Disparity Unit and Disability Unit were both declared – I forget exactly what the phrase was, but kind of critical business units in Cabinet Office terms, so the general notion was if you’re a critical business unit you weren’t expected to redeploy staff anywhere else because what you were doing was a critical function.

So RDU and DU were both designated as critical functions, I – from memory I think in about June of that year, I think when it became obvious that disability and ethnicity were going to become – were going to be really important issues in the pandemic. So I think – I think when we’re talking about redeployment of people elsewhere, that really happened in the first couple of months of the pandemic and very little after that, except in the case of Government Equalities Office, where I think a number of people were redeployed later in the year, and that probably did have an impact on that unit.

Counsel Inquiry: Can you give the Inquiry an idea of the size of the three units and also whether or not there has been a reduction in staff since the Equality Hub has been created?

Mr Marcus Bell: Right, so, in round terms, Disability Unit is about 20 staff, Race Disparity Unit is about 20 staff, Government Equalities Office is rather bigger and is about 130. So that’s about 170 staff overall. And it remained pretty much at that level until current year when, because of wider changes in the Cabinet Office, we have had to make some staffing reductions of around about 30, but that’s certainly something that’s only happened in the past few months.

Counsel Inquiry: So putting the Government Equalities Office to one side, given what you’ve said about the redeployment of staff within that unit, and bearing in mind that the sum total of staff in the other two units is about 40, how many staff do you say were redeployed in the beginning months of the Covid-19 pandemic?

Mr Marcus Bell: Right, so I’d have to check the numbers, so this is from memory, but in the case of Disability Unit I think it was literally one or two.

Counsel Inquiry: Right.

Mr Marcus Bell: So hardly any. In the case of Race Disparity Unit I think it was probably three or four, including me. So, as I say, I was redeployed, but most of the team stayed in place.

Counsel Inquiry: So there were significant numbers still running those units and carrying on the business as usual?

Mr Marcus Bell: Yes.

Counsel Inquiry: Thank you.

May we just move down this document, please, and go to the final paragraph:

“Experience of working with the centre

“- There was too big a focus on presenteeism in the early days of the pandemic regardless of the risks. This meant a number of key people all became infected at the same time.

“Conversely, this approach excluded the No. 10 disability SpAd from key decisions. As a result, mistakes were made - eg not having a BSL interpreter at the daily briefings.

“- It was felt that equalities interests weren’t properly represented in early meetings.”

And:

“- There were mixed views on working with the CO Covid-19 Taskforce.”

Lady Hallett: I’m sorry, Ms Blackwell, I’m not following why this isn’t just Module 2.

Ms Blackwell: Well, I just wanted to finally bring this all together and to see whether, in terms of going forwards with the Equality Hub, what were the lessons learned from the very early days of Covid. I appreciate that our timescale finishes in January, but …

In your position as director, Mr Bell, were there lessons to be learned in terms of the time at which Covid hit and the timescale running up to January of 2020?

Mr Marcus Bell: Well, so we published in December 2021 some recommendations about dealing with equalities issues arising from the pandemic, so if I just sort of briefly summarise what we said there, and how that relates to some of the issues you have been –

Counsel Inquiry: Yes, please.

Mr Marcus Bell: – talking about.

So I think the key things that we said in terms of future approaches to pandemics was, it was essential to have really effective communications with different groups which were tailored to them and actually cut through to who you wanted to communicate with. So that was one point.

I think the second was that maintaining trust with all groups is really important, and – sorry, maintaining it or building it where it does not exist, because effective communication, effective action with, particularly, disadvantaged groups strongly depends on trust, so I think that’s the second point.

I think the third one is about the absolutely critical importance of high quality data about, you know, particularly, because we’re talking about a pandemic, mortality, but also a number of other impacts on people, so that the government was in a place to act swiftly with issues as they were emerging.

So I think those issues around trust, communication and really good quality data, particularly about disadvantaged groups, I think those are the main things that we said, and there’s quite a lot of detail in the recommendations about how we thought it needed to be taken forward.

Counsel Inquiry: Yes. In terms of communications we can see that the bullet point 5 in this particular paragraph of experience relates to communication from the taskforce, so communications between the departments themselves.

Was that in itself a recommendation, improvement in communication between the groups within government, or do you mean communication outwith government and between the Equality Hub and those that are its subject matter?

Mr Marcus Bell: I think what we were thinking of primarily was communication with the public about public health matters, and about the pandemic and vaccines and Covid. So that’s primarily what we were thinking about. Though, I mean, communication with government in the early stages of the pandemic in particular could also have been better, as you probably heard from others.

Counsel Inquiry: Yes, all right.

In terms of the recommendations that have been made and the time that has elapsed since those recommendations have been set out by the Equality Hub and today’s date, what progress has been made in terms of the actions that were raised?

Mr Marcus Bell: I can’t give you a really clear view about that at the moment I’m afraid. I mean, as I say, we made a number of recommendations back in 2021 about this but our direct involvement with Covid and pandemic planning is, you know, obviously less than it was at the time, so I can’t give you a really clear view about that today.

Ms Blackwell: All right.

Unless my Lady has any questions, that completes my examination of Mr Bell, and there are no questions from any of the core participants.

Lady Hallett: Thank you very much for your help, Mr Bell.

The Witness: My Lady.

(The witness withdrew)

Ms Blackwell: My Lady, may I call Melanie Field, please.